Commissioner Seve Sedgwick covers -up and protects corrupt conduct by Veronique Ingram and Alison Larkins
On the 21st June 2012 documents were obtained under Freedom of Information at the Australian Public Service Commission to examine the process the Commissioner Steve Sedgwick and the skank Karin Fisher investigate Whistle-blowers and complaints about misconduct of Agency Heads under S41(f) of the APS Act.
In the Annual report there were 33 such matters referred to the Commissioner. ............................ So what do the Agency Heads have to do to have the complaint covered up..........................................
After examining the documents it was evident there was atrocious abuse of the system by Steve Sedgewick.
Instead of considering if the agencyhead was fucking the system over as in the case of Veronique Ingram , Inspector General Bankruptcy and the fat ugly mong acting as Commonwealth Ombudsman and regardless of extensive evidence in a file held by the Commonwealth Ombudsman Steve Sedgewick and Karin Fisher made the decision that they would cover these matters up.
The abuse of the APS Act, the Bankruptcy Act and the Commonwealth Ombudsman's Act clearly shows that the leadership of the APS Commission is very questionable and has failed to uphold any ethics.
Following is a from Hansard 31.05.2012 when Veronique Ingram ITSA was questioned by Senator Williams and Senator Brandis. Veronique Ingram was aware at the time she was being protected and all the evidence had been covered up of systemic corrupt conduct by herself and senior management at ITSA by Steve Sedgwick
Copy of Hansard
. LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Senator BRANDIS: All right. My colleague Senator Williams has told me that he has some questions he wants to ask of you. So, in the hope that those questions will not take all that long to ask and answer, I am going to yield the call, if I may, Madam Chair, to him. Senator WILLIAMS: Folks from ITSA, I want to take you to a couple of issues. I want to take you to Mr Paul Pattison—you would be familiar with the name? Ms Ingram: Yes. Senator WILLIAMS: He was deregistered as a trustee in bankruptcy after he had voluntarily resigned from his 272 active matters in July last year. I think I have raised this issue of Mr Pattison with you before. I want to raise with you a matter that involved Mr Pattison and Mr Alex Kane Mircevski, of Victoria. You would be familiar with this long-running battle with Mr Pattison? Ms Ingram: I am aware of some of the issues, yes. Senator WILLIAMS: I refer to a letter dated 12 August 2009 signed by you, Ms Ingram. It is a response to complaints Mr Mircevski made to the Attorney-General on 17 and 8 July 2009. You refer to a letter dated 19 June 2009 which indicated the conduct of the trustee was not considered inappropriate. What investigations of Mr Pattison led your Bankruptcy Regulation Branch to that conclusion? Ms Ingram: It is important to note that the trustee, Mr Pattison, has been deregistered. I do not want to reveal the details of that deregistration, but it principally related to his lack of resources to run a trustee business, if you can call it that. The companies he was using, in terms of his corporate insolvency practice, had gone into voluntary administration. Another one had gone into liquidation. We were examining his systems and files and also came to the view that, after those procedures had happened, he no longer had the resources to undertake a trustee business. As to the issue with Mr Mircevski, yes we did review his matter and we did not uncover any improper conduct on the part of the trustee. Senator WILLIAMS: I believe he milked Mr Mircevski's assets to the tune of $400,000. I think Mr Mircevski was being sued by the ATO for an amount of $27,000. I think $400,000 was milked out, and not one cent went to the ATO. That might need some more clarification. Obviously Mr Pattison was broke—perhaps he should not have been, the way he milked Mr Mircevski's assets. Take me through in brief what you do to investigate such complaints, including what examination is done of the trustee's books? Ms Ingram: Generally we review the trustee's books every year to 18 months. We review each trustee's operations. If you are referring to what do we do when we receive a request to review a matter, we would go to the trustee and ask him to respond to the allegations, and we would test them. I cannot respond in relation to this particular matter—I do not have the details before me. Senator WILLIAMS: Would you take it on notice. Ms Ingram: Yes. You might be aware that Mr Mircevski is currently before the courts in relation to a criminal matter. Senator WILLIAMS: I am well aware of that—I do not know about a criminal matter; I know it is in relation to a property at Kinglake that was burnt out. I think Mr Pattison was responsible for the insurance as trustee at the time, and no doubt more of that will come out in the wash. How many other complaints were received about Paul Pattison before Mr Mircevski sought to have him removed? Ms Ingram: I do not have those details. We will take it on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: Why did ITSA oppose a subpoena seeking ITSA's records to support Pattison's removal by the Federal Court? Ms Ingram: I would have to take that on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: Why did ITSA threaten or actually seek personal costs orders against volunteer members of the Bar Duty Barristers Scheme, a public interest law clearing house which offers help to the vulnerable? Who approves such actions by ITSA? You basically threatened Geoff Slater that if he continued representing Mr Mircevski—he took a voluntary job that I put them in touch with when Mr Mircevski contacted my office in desperation; Mr Slater went and did a charity job for a vulnerable person—you would seek costs from him. Why did you do that? Ms Ingram: It is not our practice to threaten bankrupts or trustees—or any people. Senator WILLIAMS:
Scheme—a volunteer scheme where barristers actually donate their time to help the vulnerable? Why did you seek costs? This was a barrister representing Mr Mircevski. I will repeat the question. Why did ITSA threaten or actually seek personal costs orders against volunteer members of the Bar Duty Barristers Page 88 Senate Thursday, 24 May 2012 LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Ms Ingram: I will have to take on notice the matter in relation to costs. Senator WILLIAMS: It certainly scared away a volunteer barrister who was there to protect the vulnerable against Pattison, who has now been scrubbed out, I believe, from ASIC as well as a liquidator who has gone broke. He acted like a vulture on this person. That is the way I see it. When a volunteer barrister comes in, you threaten him with costs. If you take that on notice, I would like to know the answer to that please. What happens now to the victims of Paul Pattison, including the bankrupts and the creditors? Will there be an apology from your organisation? Ms Ingram: Paul Pattison has not actually been found to have mismanaged any estates as yet. We have taken over his files and we are now the trustee of record of those active files. We will obviously have a look at those files to see if appropriate procedures have been taken in respect of each of those files. Senator WILLIAMS: Are you actually in control of that property in the Kinglake area that was once Mr Mircevski's? Is that now in ITSA's control? Ms Ingram: I would have to take that on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: I believe Westpac Bank now has a mortgage on the property and it is worth less than the mortgage; it is in negative. The property might be worth $100,000 and the debt is $140,000. The debt is actually higher. If that is the case and if ITSA has control of the property, are you allowed to release that property for a small sum of money that is in negative equity? Ms Ingram: I am sorry; I do not understand. Release it to who? Senator WILLIAMS: If Mr Mircevski is now out of bankruptcy and wishes to buy the block back? Ms Ingram: The estate is still in administration and those assets remain with the trustee for distribution to creditors. Senator WILLIAMS: Can the victims of Paul Pattison seek compensation? Do you know if that is possible? Ms Ingram: I cannot answer your question in globo because I do not know who you are referring to as victims. As far as we are aware the estates that Paul Pattison has managed have not been in breach of the Bankruptcy Act. CHAIR: Senator, there are a couple of things I am feeling a bit nervous about here. The trustee service is a full fee-paying recovery service. Also, we tend to stay away from very particular personal details and matters. We did that for the first couple of days in Immigration certainly when it came to particular cases. Can I make a suggestion that you either put these questions on notice or perhaps seek to get a private briefing and meet with the trustee. Senator WILLIAMS: If you like I can be more general in my questions in the future. CHAIR: That is true. Senator JACINTA COLLINS: Although we have reached the time. CHAIR: I do not wish to impinge here but 6.30 is our dinner break so if you have 15 or 20 minutes left then we will need to break, otherwise I am going to suggest that if you wanted to you could put them on notice or we will do it some other way. Senator WILLIAMS: Why don't we come back after the dinner break? Senator JACINTA COLLINS: Can I suggest that Senator Williams's questions have often been on matters that Ms Ingram does not have information on before her at the moment. We could spend another 15 minutes continuing to take things on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: I have more general questions on more general issues and on another issue. CHAIR: We will need to break and come back at 8.00 pm then. Ms Ingram: For the record, can I just say that the matters of Mr Mircevski and Mr Pattison have been before the courts and they have arbitrated and they have not found any inappropriate regulatory oversight on the part of ITSA or inappropriate behaviour in terms of seeking costs or otherwise. It has all been before the court and managed by the courts and they have so decided. Proceedings suspended from 18:35 to 20:00
CHAIR:
the Attorney-General's Department and officers from the Insolvency and Trustee Service Australia with us. Ms Ingram, you were taking questions from Senator Williams before the dinner break. We will keep going there. We will reconvene this public hearing of the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee. This is our consideration of the federal budget, our estimates consideration for 2012-13. We have got Thursday, 24 May 2012 Senate Page 89 LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Senator WILLIAMS: Ms Ingram, when people go into bankruptcy, there are two ways. There is voluntary bankruptcy and also court appointed bankruptcy. Is that the process? Ms Ingram: There is the creditor's petitioning, sequestration bankruptcy and debtor's petitioning bankruptcy. Senator WILLIAMS: At a rough estimation, how many people go bankrupt a year in Australia? You not have to be spot on; I just want some idea. Ms Ingram: In our annual report, under the Inspector General of Bankruptcy, we have those statistics. I can give you a global figure for personal insolvencies or just the bankruptcies. Senator WILLIAMS: Just the bankruptcies. Ms Ingram: If you bear with me, I can give you the figures for the last financial year. Senator WILLIAMS: Which is up to 30 June 2011. Ms Ingram: Yes. And I can give you the figures that we have up until the last quarter, which was the end of March. Senator WILLIAMS: This current year? Ms Ingram: Yes, up to March 2012. There were 16,800 bankruptcies. In the equivalent period last year, there were 17,494. Senator WILLIAMS: Over that same period for the three quarters? Is that what that is? Ms Ingram: Yes, for the same period. Senator WILLIAMS: Over the nine-month period? Ms Ingram: Yes, for the three quarters. Senator WILLIAMS: So they are actually down a bit? Ms Ingram: Yes. Senator WILLIAMS: I asked this question of ASIC many times when the infamous Stuart Ariff was running amok. Is ITSA resourced enough? Are you adequately resourced both in financial terms and staff numbers? Ms Ingram: I believe we are resourced enough. As I said in a previous question, from Senator Brandis I think it was, we are a cost recovery agency principally. We charge our stakeholders for the services that we provide. I believe that those resources are adequate. Senator WILLIAMS: You are presently handling a matter in relation to a Mr George Lousick, who traded I believe as G & K Aluminium and as Clarence Valley Aluminium and Steel on the North Coast of New South Wales. Mr Lousick is no longer trading and, I believe, left a trail of creditors in his wake. You were seeking to have Mr Lousick sign documents to enable further examination of his affairs. Do you know if he has signed those documents? Ms Ingram: I would have to take that on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: I think he had to sign documents. CHAIR: Senator Williams, the officers will not have information about individual cases here with them. You might want to think about what you put on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: Okay. I have three or four more questions. I will put them on notice, Chair. I know that ITSA has been working on this issue and there are plenty of creditors lined up who are anxious to find out their future, if I can put it that way, and whether there will be any return. Those are all the questions I have. CHAIR:
This is a re-write of what Veronique Ingram should have said.. considering Steve Sedgewick is covering up for her........................................
Senator WILLIAMS: He was deregistered as a trustee in bankruptcy after he had voluntarily resigned from his 272 active matters in July last year. I think I have raised this issue of Mr Pattison with you before. I want to raise with you a matter that involved Mr Pattison and Mr Alex Kane Mircevski, of Victoria. You would be familiar with this long-running battle with Mr Pattison?
Instead of considering if the agencyhead was fucking the system over as in the case of Veronique Ingram , Inspector General Bankruptcy and the fat ugly mong acting as Commonwealth Ombudsman and regardless of extensive evidence in a file held by the Commonwealth Ombudsman Steve Sedgewick and Karin Fisher made the decision that they would cover these matters up.
The abuse of the APS Act, the Bankruptcy Act and the Commonwealth Ombudsman's Act clearly shows that the leadership of the APS Commission is very questionable and has failed to uphold any ethics.
Following is a from Hansard 31.05.2012 when Veronique Ingram ITSA was questioned by Senator Williams and Senator Brandis. Veronique Ingram was aware at the time she was being protected and all the evidence had been covered up of systemic corrupt conduct by herself and senior management at ITSA by Steve Sedgwick
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I am urgently seeking a copy of the internal procedures manual for Government employees.
I will never reveal who provided me with this if you can give me a copy. Please email me direct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I am urgently seeking a copy of the internal procedures manual for Government employees.
I will never reveal who provided me with this if you can give me a copy. Please email me direct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Copy of Hansard
. LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Senator BRANDIS: All right. My colleague Senator Williams has told me that he has some questions he wants to ask of you. So, in the hope that those questions will not take all that long to ask and answer, I am going to yield the call, if I may, Madam Chair, to him. Senator WILLIAMS: Folks from ITSA, I want to take you to a couple of issues. I want to take you to Mr Paul Pattison—you would be familiar with the name? Ms Ingram: Yes. Senator WILLIAMS: He was deregistered as a trustee in bankruptcy after he had voluntarily resigned from his 272 active matters in July last year. I think I have raised this issue of Mr Pattison with you before. I want to raise with you a matter that involved Mr Pattison and Mr Alex Kane Mircevski, of Victoria. You would be familiar with this long-running battle with Mr Pattison? Ms Ingram: I am aware of some of the issues, yes. Senator WILLIAMS: I refer to a letter dated 12 August 2009 signed by you, Ms Ingram. It is a response to complaints Mr Mircevski made to the Attorney-General on 17 and 8 July 2009. You refer to a letter dated 19 June 2009 which indicated the conduct of the trustee was not considered inappropriate. What investigations of Mr Pattison led your Bankruptcy Regulation Branch to that conclusion? Ms Ingram: It is important to note that the trustee, Mr Pattison, has been deregistered. I do not want to reveal the details of that deregistration, but it principally related to his lack of resources to run a trustee business, if you can call it that. The companies he was using, in terms of his corporate insolvency practice, had gone into voluntary administration. Another one had gone into liquidation. We were examining his systems and files and also came to the view that, after those procedures had happened, he no longer had the resources to undertake a trustee business. As to the issue with Mr Mircevski, yes we did review his matter and we did not uncover any improper conduct on the part of the trustee. Senator WILLIAMS: I believe he milked Mr Mircevski's assets to the tune of $400,000. I think Mr Mircevski was being sued by the ATO for an amount of $27,000. I think $400,000 was milked out, and not one cent went to the ATO. That might need some more clarification. Obviously Mr Pattison was broke—perhaps he should not have been, the way he milked Mr Mircevski's assets. Take me through in brief what you do to investigate such complaints, including what examination is done of the trustee's books? Ms Ingram: Generally we review the trustee's books every year to 18 months. We review each trustee's operations. If you are referring to what do we do when we receive a request to review a matter, we would go to the trustee and ask him to respond to the allegations, and we would test them. I cannot respond in relation to this particular matter—I do not have the details before me. Senator WILLIAMS: Would you take it on notice. Ms Ingram: Yes. You might be aware that Mr Mircevski is currently before the courts in relation to a criminal matter. Senator WILLIAMS: I am well aware of that—I do not know about a criminal matter; I know it is in relation to a property at Kinglake that was burnt out. I think Mr Pattison was responsible for the insurance as trustee at the time, and no doubt more of that will come out in the wash. How many other complaints were received about Paul Pattison before Mr Mircevski sought to have him removed? Ms Ingram: I do not have those details. We will take it on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: Why did ITSA oppose a subpoena seeking ITSA's records to support Pattison's removal by the Federal Court? Ms Ingram: I would have to take that on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: Why did ITSA threaten or actually seek personal costs orders against volunteer members of the Bar Duty Barristers Scheme, a public interest law clearing house which offers help to the vulnerable? Who approves such actions by ITSA? You basically threatened Geoff Slater that if he continued representing Mr Mircevski—he took a voluntary job that I put them in touch with when Mr Mircevski contacted my office in desperation; Mr Slater went and did a charity job for a vulnerable person—you would seek costs from him. Why did you do that? Ms Ingram: It is not our practice to threaten bankrupts or trustees—or any people. Senator WILLIAMS:
Scheme—a volunteer scheme where barristers actually donate their time to help the vulnerable? Why did you seek costs? This was a barrister representing Mr Mircevski. I will repeat the question. Why did ITSA threaten or actually seek personal costs orders against volunteer members of the Bar Duty Barristers Page 88 Senate Thursday, 24 May 2012 LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Ms Ingram: I will have to take on notice the matter in relation to costs. Senator WILLIAMS: It certainly scared away a volunteer barrister who was there to protect the vulnerable against Pattison, who has now been scrubbed out, I believe, from ASIC as well as a liquidator who has gone broke. He acted like a vulture on this person. That is the way I see it. When a volunteer barrister comes in, you threaten him with costs. If you take that on notice, I would like to know the answer to that please. What happens now to the victims of Paul Pattison, including the bankrupts and the creditors? Will there be an apology from your organisation? Ms Ingram: Paul Pattison has not actually been found to have mismanaged any estates as yet. We have taken over his files and we are now the trustee of record of those active files. We will obviously have a look at those files to see if appropriate procedures have been taken in respect of each of those files. Senator WILLIAMS: Are you actually in control of that property in the Kinglake area that was once Mr Mircevski's? Is that now in ITSA's control? Ms Ingram: I would have to take that on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: I believe Westpac Bank now has a mortgage on the property and it is worth less than the mortgage; it is in negative. The property might be worth $100,000 and the debt is $140,000. The debt is actually higher. If that is the case and if ITSA has control of the property, are you allowed to release that property for a small sum of money that is in negative equity? Ms Ingram: I am sorry; I do not understand. Release it to who? Senator WILLIAMS: If Mr Mircevski is now out of bankruptcy and wishes to buy the block back? Ms Ingram: The estate is still in administration and those assets remain with the trustee for distribution to creditors. Senator WILLIAMS: Can the victims of Paul Pattison seek compensation? Do you know if that is possible? Ms Ingram: I cannot answer your question in globo because I do not know who you are referring to as victims. As far as we are aware the estates that Paul Pattison has managed have not been in breach of the Bankruptcy Act. CHAIR: Senator, there are a couple of things I am feeling a bit nervous about here. The trustee service is a full fee-paying recovery service. Also, we tend to stay away from very particular personal details and matters. We did that for the first couple of days in Immigration certainly when it came to particular cases. Can I make a suggestion that you either put these questions on notice or perhaps seek to get a private briefing and meet with the trustee. Senator WILLIAMS: If you like I can be more general in my questions in the future. CHAIR: That is true. Senator JACINTA COLLINS: Although we have reached the time. CHAIR: I do not wish to impinge here but 6.30 is our dinner break so if you have 15 or 20 minutes left then we will need to break, otherwise I am going to suggest that if you wanted to you could put them on notice or we will do it some other way. Senator WILLIAMS: Why don't we come back after the dinner break? Senator JACINTA COLLINS: Can I suggest that Senator Williams's questions have often been on matters that Ms Ingram does not have information on before her at the moment. We could spend another 15 minutes continuing to take things on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: I have more general questions on more general issues and on another issue. CHAIR: We will need to break and come back at 8.00 pm then. Ms Ingram: For the record, can I just say that the matters of Mr Mircevski and Mr Pattison have been before the courts and they have arbitrated and they have not found any inappropriate regulatory oversight on the part of ITSA or inappropriate behaviour in terms of seeking costs or otherwise. It has all been before the court and managed by the courts and they have so decided. Proceedings suspended from 18:35 to 20:00
CHAIR:
the Attorney-General's Department and officers from the Insolvency and Trustee Service Australia with us. Ms Ingram, you were taking questions from Senator Williams before the dinner break. We will keep going there. We will reconvene this public hearing of the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee. This is our consideration of the federal budget, our estimates consideration for 2012-13. We have got Thursday, 24 May 2012 Senate Page 89 LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Senator WILLIAMS: Ms Ingram, when people go into bankruptcy, there are two ways. There is voluntary bankruptcy and also court appointed bankruptcy. Is that the process? Ms Ingram: There is the creditor's petitioning, sequestration bankruptcy and debtor's petitioning bankruptcy. Senator WILLIAMS: At a rough estimation, how many people go bankrupt a year in Australia? You not have to be spot on; I just want some idea. Ms Ingram: In our annual report, under the Inspector General of Bankruptcy, we have those statistics. I can give you a global figure for personal insolvencies or just the bankruptcies. Senator WILLIAMS: Just the bankruptcies. Ms Ingram: If you bear with me, I can give you the figures for the last financial year. Senator WILLIAMS: Which is up to 30 June 2011. Ms Ingram: Yes. And I can give you the figures that we have up until the last quarter, which was the end of March. Senator WILLIAMS: This current year? Ms Ingram: Yes, up to March 2012. There were 16,800 bankruptcies. In the equivalent period last year, there were 17,494. Senator WILLIAMS: Over that same period for the three quarters? Is that what that is? Ms Ingram: Yes, for the same period. Senator WILLIAMS: Over the nine-month period? Ms Ingram: Yes, for the three quarters. Senator WILLIAMS: So they are actually down a bit? Ms Ingram: Yes. Senator WILLIAMS: I asked this question of ASIC many times when the infamous Stuart Ariff was running amok. Is ITSA resourced enough? Are you adequately resourced both in financial terms and staff numbers? Ms Ingram: I believe we are resourced enough. As I said in a previous question, from Senator Brandis I think it was, we are a cost recovery agency principally. We charge our stakeholders for the services that we provide. I believe that those resources are adequate. Senator WILLIAMS: You are presently handling a matter in relation to a Mr George Lousick, who traded I believe as G & K Aluminium and as Clarence Valley Aluminium and Steel on the North Coast of New South Wales. Mr Lousick is no longer trading and, I believe, left a trail of creditors in his wake. You were seeking to have Mr Lousick sign documents to enable further examination of his affairs. Do you know if he has signed those documents? Ms Ingram: I would have to take that on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: I think he had to sign documents. CHAIR: Senator Williams, the officers will not have information about individual cases here with them. You might want to think about what you put on notice. Senator WILLIAMS: Okay. I have three or four more questions. I will put them on notice, Chair. I know that ITSA has been working on this issue and there are plenty of creditors lined up who are anxious to find out their future, if I can put it that way, and whether there will be any return. Those are all the questions I have. CHAIR:
This is a re-write of what Veronique Ingram should have said.. considering Steve Sedgewick is covering up for her........................................
CHAIR: Ms Ingram, good evening. Do you have an opening statement?
Ms Ingram: Yes I do............. I want to tell Senator Brandis and Senator Williams to come kiss my Arse.
Senator BRANDIS: Your agency has received, according to table 1.1 in the portfolio budget statement—I am looking at page 361—a 26.4 per cent increase in funding in the budget. Is that right?
Ms Ingram : Yes. But I as I have already told you .........................
Senator BRANDIS: Is that entirely due to the Personal Property Securities Register?
Senator BRANDIS: Does it to any degree reflect your assessment of future demands that might be made upon your agency because of an increase in insolvency?
Mrs Ingram: listen here you dumb fuck Senators.................I already realize yo are trying to corner me into admitting what is occurring with senior management at ITSA and I have the protection of Alison Larlins who has assured me she will coverup all systemic corrupt conduct ... so what ever .. what ever you can all fuck off with your questions....
Senator BRANDIS: I see. Turning then to the Personal Property Securities Register, I am aware that there have been a number of difficulties in the commencement of the new arrangements. These are perhaps best understood as teething problems, and we had some remedial legislation in the Senate a little while ago to deal with at least some of them. Can you please describe to the committee how the introduction of the system has gone and identify to us any particular problems that you have identified in the start-up phase.
Ms Ingram : I think I would like to distinguish the legislative amendment from the—
Senator BRANDIS: Administration.
Ms Ingram : Yes, the prescription of the starting of the register on 30 January. The legislation, of course, is a matter for the Attorney-General's Department, but that piece of—....................... awwww now I can't remember what the fuck I was talking about.............
Senator BRANDIS: All right. My colleague Senator Williams has told me that he has some questions he wants to ask of you. So, in the hope that those questions will not take all that long to ask and answer, I am going to yield the call, if I may, Madam Chair, to him.
Senator WILLIAMS: Folks from ITSA, I want to take you to a couple of issues. I want to take you to Mr Paul Pattison—you would be familiar with the name?
Ms Ingram: look you stupid fuck!!!!!! I don't want to discuss Paul Pattison because to expose his corrupt dealings would expose the legal advise given to trustees from Matthew Osborne Principal Legal Officer. I have already told you Alison Larkins has made a deal to cover up the shonkey legal advice given by Matthew Osborne so fucking do not ask me about Paul Pattison.... Got it.....
Senator WILLIAMS: He was deregistered as a trustee in bankruptcy after he had voluntarily resigned from his 272 active matters in July last year. I think I have raised this issue of Mr Pattison with you before. I want to raise with you a matter that involved Mr Pattison and Mr Alex Kane Mircevski, of Victoria. You would be familiar with this long-running battle with Mr Pattison?
Ms Ingram : I am aware of some of the issues, but you can kiss my arse... it is old news as far as I am concerned... I am more concerned along with Mathew Osborne, Mark Findlay and Adam Toma of fucking everyone over in the future. Mark Findlay does a splendid job in Bankruptcy regulations of covering up all breaches of the Bankruptcy Act. Mark Findlay was nurtured by Florence CHOO deputy Official Receiver ACT and NSW who gave him a leg up in management and then he got his leg over her.
Senator WILLIAMS: I refer to a letter dated 12 August 2009 signed by you, Ms Ingram. It is a response to complaints Mr Mircevski made to the Attorney-General on 17 and 8 July 2009. You refer to a letter dated 19 June 2009 which indicated the conduct of the trustee was not considered inappropriate. What investigations of Mr Pattison led your Bankruptcy Regulation Branch to that conclusion?
Ms Ingram: Look Senator Williams it is important to note that this trustee has been deregistered.. ITSA did its best to cover everything up for him but unfortunately it failed. I told you to fuck off earlier. ITSA did review his system and files and came to the conclusion that there was no improper conduct by Paul Pattison in the matter of Mr Mircevski.
Clearly Senator Williams I am not going to fucking admit to you anything.
Senator WILLIAMS: I believe he milked Mr Mircevski's assets to the tune of $400,000. I think Mr Mircevski was being sued by the ATO for an amount of $27,000. I think $400,000 was milked out, and not one cent went to the ATO. That might need some more clarification. Obviously Mr Pattison was broke—perhaps he should not have been, the way he milked Mr Mircevski's assets. Take me through in brief what you do to investigate such complaints, including what examination is done of the trustee's books?
Ms Ingram : well ... what the fuck Senator Williams... shit happens...............Generally we review the trustee's books every year to 18 months. We review each trustee's operations. If you are referring to what do we do when we receive a request to review a matter, we would go to the trustee and ask him to respond to the allegations, and we would test them. I cannot respond in relation to this particular matter—I do not have the details before me. However ITSA do have a very good review system which involves Adam Toma National manager Enforcement and Regulations who I have confidence can fuck anyone over who makes a complaint
Senator WILLIAMS: Would you take it on notice.
Ms Ingram : Yes. You might be aware that Mr Mircevski is currently before the courts in relation to a criminal matter trumped up by ITSA which we all hope will silence him.
Senator WILLIAMS: I am well aware of that—I do not know about a criminal matter; I know it is in relation to a property at Kinglake that was burnt out. I think Mr Pattison was responsible for the insurance as trustee at the time, and no doubt more of that will come out in the wash. How many other complaints were received about Paul Pattison before Mr Mircevski sought to have him removed?
Ms Ingram : AWWW ... fuck off.....
Senator WILLIAMS: Why did ITSA oppose a subpoena seeking ITSA's records to support Pattison's removal by the Federal Court?
Ms Ingram : Again I will repeat myself you stupid fuck...... that to expose the practice of Paul Pattison would be to expose ITSA .....
Senator WILLIAMS: Why did ITSA threaten or actually seek personal costs orders against volunteer members of the Bar Duty Barristers Scheme, a public interest law clearing house which offers help to the vulnerable? Who approves such actions by ITSA? You basically threatened Geoff Slater that if he continued representing Mr Mircevski—he took a voluntary job that I put them in touch with when Mr Mircevski contacted my office in desperation; Mr Slater went and did a charity job for a vulnerable person—you would seek costs from him. Why did you do that?
Ms Ingram : How funny you brought that up..... Sometimes this threat works and sometimes it doesn't.Clearly in the case of Ms Brown Adam Toma threatened her with S474.17 which carries 3 years imprisonment..... I don't think this has deterred her though
Senator WILLIAMS: This was a barrister representing Mr Mircevski. I will repeat the question. Why did ITSA threaten or actually seek personal costs orders against volunteer members of the Bar Duty Barristers Scheme—a volunteer scheme where barristers actually donate their time to help the vulnerable? Why did you seek costs?
Ms Ingram : Well …. do you think I am a moron??? Kiss my arse... you do not have to repeat your question … I wanted to actually avoid it. I also would like to repeat myself that I have protection from the Acting Commonwealth Ombudsman Alsison Larkins and I just did a deal with the APS Commissioner Steve Sedgwick to protect ITSA as well so fuck off............I will have to take on notice the matter in relation to costs.
Senator WILLIAMS: It certainly scared away a volunteer barrister who was there to protect the vulnerable against Pattison, who has now been scrubbed out, I believe, from ASIC as well as a liquidator who has gone broke. He acted like a vulture on this person. That is the way I see it. When a volunteer barrister comes in, you threaten him with costs. If you take that on notice, I would like to know the answer to that please. What happens now to the victims of Paul Pattison, including the bankrupts and the creditors? Will there be an apology from your organisation?
Ms Ingram :Yep..... we did a really good job there scaring away that barrister .. It worked exceptionally well in that circumstance.ITSA is still going through the books of Paul Pattison to cover up everything but as I have already told you ITSA has found no misconduct so you can all go and eat shit...........
Senator WILLIAMS: Are you actually in control of that property in the Kinglake area that was once Mr Mircevski's? Is that now in ITSA's control?
Ms Ingram : I would have to take that on notice.
Senator WILLIAMS: I believe Westpac Bank now has a mortgage on the property and it is worth less than the mortgage; it is in negative. The property might be worth $100,000 and the debt is $140,000. The debt is actually higher. If that is the case and if ITSA has control of the property, are you allowed to release that property for a small sum of money that is in negative equity?
Ms Ingram : Get to the fucking point..... Release it to who arsehole?
Senator WILLIAMS: If Mr Mircevski is now out of bankruptcy and wishes to buy the block back?
Ms Ingram : The estate is still in administration and those assets remain with the trustee for distribution to creditors.
Senator WILLIAMS: Can the victims of Paul Pattison seek compensation? Do you know if that is possible?
Ms Ingram : I cannot answer your question in globo because I do not know who you are referring to as victims. ITSA is still attempting to coverup that the Principal legal officer Matthew Osborne is giving trustees legal advice that S134(3) gives them the discretion to breach the bankruptcy Act. So if you got no proof of this then you can all fuck off. Matthew Osborne gave this information to Ms brown because he thought she was a trustee. However I understand that ITSA has attempted to delete any evidence of this by hacking into her computer and removing any evidence, so again eat shit and as far as ITSA is concerned Paul Pattison has not breached the Bankruptcy Act.... do I need to repeat myself.... Paul Pattison has not breached the Bankruptcy Act..
CHAIR: Senator, there are a couple of things I am feeling a bit nervous about here. The trustee service is a full fee-paying recovery service. Also, we tend to stay away from very particular personal details and matters. We did that for the first couple of days in Immigration certainly when it came to particular cases. Can I make a suggestion that you either put these questions on notice or perhaps seek to get a private briefing and meet with the trustee.
Senator WILLIAMS: If you like I can be more general in my questions in the future.
CHAIR: That is true.
Senator JACINTA COLLINS: Although we have reached the time.
CHAIR: I do not wish to impinge here but 6.30 is our dinner break so if you have 15 or 20 minutes left then we will need to break, otherwise I am going to suggest that if you wanted to you could put them on notice or we will do it some other way.
Senator WILLIAMS: Why don't we come back after the dinner break?
Senator JACINTA COLLINS: Can I suggest that Senator Williams's questions have often been on matters that Ms Ingram does not have information or more importantly is attempting to coverup.
Senator WILLIAMS: I have more general questions on more general issues and on another issue.
CHAIR: We will need to break and come back at 8.00 pm then.
Veronique Ingram: I think Senator Williams and senator Brandis should enjoy eating part of my shit with dinner.
Senator WILLIAMS: Okay. I have three or four more questions. I will put them on notice, Chair. I know that ITSA has been working on this issue and there are plenty of creditors lined up who are anxious to find out their future, if I can put it that way, and whether there will be any return. Those are all the questions I have.
CHAIR: As there are no other questions, Ms Ingram and your staff, thank you, very much, for your time and for staying after the dinner break.
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